33. From the Army to the California Senate: An Unfiltered Take on Policymaking with guest Senator Josh Newman

Senator Josh Newman  00:00

We do too many builds, as a legislature, we have too many people on too many committees, which stretches people way too thin. I'm among a group of people that are going to advocate for reducing the bill quota. And then I've been sort of a vocal advocate within my caucus to say, Hey, you know, people don't need to be on five committees, right. And there might be too much and we don't need to have committees that have 17 people on them because that creates a tremendous burden for advocates to get to a majority of those people.

Kristina Hamilton  00:32

I'm excited to share with you today my fantastic discussion with Senator Josh Newman representing the 29th senatorial district, the senator and I riff on the nuances of the legislative process, what it means to get lawmakers attention when there are over 2000 bills introduced every year, we delve into the appropriations process, the mysterious suspense file, and finally, the budget process and how all of this works in real life and what advocates need to know as always, I hope that you find this conversation valuable. I am thankful to the Senator for his time. This is Christina boss, Hamilton, you are listening to the blueprint for California Advocates podcast.

Kristina Hamilton  01:19

Navigating the California Legislative process can be frustrating and overwhelming. The path to creating policy change in Sacramento is complicated and lined with logistical and political potholes. Unless you live and breathe life at the Capitol, chances are you don't even know where to start. That is why I'm so happy to share with you my new Changemaker, an insider's guide to getting shit done at the California capitol. This is a one of a kind guide that demystifies California government and the legislative process into accessible actionable steps with real life advice to give you the confidence you need to step up and win it, check out my book, please go to the website www.kb H advocacy.com. Forward slash change maker, you can pick up a copy online or you can head to Capitol books on K Street in downtown

02:16

Sacramento. Welcome, senator Josh Newman. It is such an honor to have you on this episode, you represent the 29th senatorial district, which is based in beautiful Orange County. I would love for you to take a moment and give us a little bit of background and how you landed in the California Senate.

Senator Josh Newman  02:37

Okay, well, Joe, it's an honor to be here. And so always, you and I have known each other for a long time. And we've been talking about this podcast for all this is one I'm sitting in my office, which in this is in the city of Fullerton, and Florida is sort of dead center in the what is currently the 29th Senate District which changes we may get to that in this podcast that changes in the next cycle. But I've been in office since 2016. got elected in a very close election and it was my first time running for legislative office. My background before

Kristina Hamilton  03:06

that we've always been that long ago, you're blind. No,

Senator Josh Newman  03:10

I know I had at the time I had an infant. And now we have a seven year old. I've been doing this long enough that I have a second grader. And she's kind of grown up. While I;m well. I've been doing the elected service politics. So as you know, my background really briefly is I'm a graduate of Yale University. I served after college as an officer in the United States Army. I got out in 1990 Right before the first Gulf War. And my sort of post service professional experiences has been pretty varied. I worked in local government, in San Francisco, worked in marketing, public relations, worked in the entertainment business for five years down here in LA. And I worked in internet technology for about 15 years. Before doing this in about 2012. I got very interested in the question about why young veterans, being a veteran myself, were having so much trouble upon their return to Southern California finding good jobs, right, no one that says I knew them, and also take into account all the challenges that they face, but also the good service that they provided. If you're involved in the Orange County veteran's advocacy community through that one meeting a lot of our elected representatives, while we said wonderful things about veterans, but, you know, there was a big gap between rhetoric and practice at that time still is. And so I, you know, kind of got frustrated enough that one night while I was griping about, you know, everybody says they want to do the right thing, but they don't. My wife, I think, have clear after having listened to me for too long, said something federal, you know, hey, our state senator, it turned out in 2016. If you really want to change things, maybe you should think about running. And she didn't tell your wife that she would admit it. I mean, she'll admit it. And

Kristina Hamilton  04:45

I'm sure now she's like, Gosh, darn,

Senator Josh Newman  04:49

She has regretted many, many times. It's so that Dan, kind of the idealist that I am, if you think about elections for what they're supposed to be, they're how we as citizens hire the people who work for us in the public sphere. So I thought I had something to offer and I was one of three candidates. And there were two Democrats and I wasn't the Democratic Party's choice. But I kind of made my way through the primary that it was me and the Republican that I was getting elected in a very, very close election was the closest election Ito's state that year. I was kind of stunned at how much attention I got and how much money you can flow through it. And Milan was so close, it wasn't actually called until after Thanksgiving, right? Yes, three weeks. And then it also had the additional consequence of giving Democrats two thirds majorities, once again, in both houses of the legislature. And that got a lot of attention. And that was that it was really relevant when in April of the following year, about four or five months into my tenure, the Senate voted for a bill to raise California's gas tax was called SB one. And we all voted for that bill. One of us there were 80 Democrats across two houses, one Republican, but I because I'm from Orange County, I guess. And I'd won this very close election, I was singled out for a recall effort. And that turned out to be successful. So I was recalled or expelled in 2018. And then ran again, for this office in 2020, and was elected or reelected, depending on how you think about it. And so I actually have the weird distinction of being the only legislator in California state history to be recalled to regain my seat. And that means either I really believe in public service, and I've done a decent job, or I'm a glutton for punishment, or for both of those things. I guess it was, it's, you know, so you and I have known each other for, you know, that whole time. I've always enjoyed working with you and with some of your clients, who typically are trying to make it a stick, the state work better for working people for disadvantaged groups. And I admire you and them for that. And I'm glad to be here today.

Kristina Hamilton  06:47

Thank you. You reminded me about your primary, though in 2018. And what a shocker, it was that you came in 2016 2016. Shoot, that's right, yes. 2016, you beat the Democratic establishment candidate, and you made it into the top two, and that was just nobody saw that coming? Right? It was like, Josh Newman isn't going to be in the general election. That must have been a crazy experience to go from, the underdog to, now your top two and like you said, the money starts flowing?

Senator Josh Newman  07:24

I guess I mean, you know, so so, you know, it's a funny thing to be the candidate. So, you know, if you're the number, the outsider guy, you know, nobody gave me a ton of attention, or much of a chance, frankly, right. So you know, there was a guy, and who had gotten in much earlier, he'd been the mayor of a town that's actually outside the district, he bought a house in the district to run that happens sometimes. And so I you know, nobody paid me much mind, right. And so I kept trying to get the attention of the political reporter for the local paper. And the only question would ever asked me, you know, it wasn't about what I did, or what I was working, it was about how much money have you raised? And you know, how much money will you raise that kind of thing. And you stayed about the same surprise, we talk. But you know, nobody ever spent me, you asked me, for instance how are you spending that money, right. And so the way we spent my very small amount compared to my opponents, you know, pretty, pretty meaningful amount was, you know, kind of creative marketing, right? So we did a bunch of creative things, to try and make the case that, you know, people deserve better by way of their elected representation. And this guy named Newman, you know, vote for Newman. And so it did surprise a lot of people. And one of the, you know, kind of the campaign marketing elements, gimmicks that I was using, was I had this idea of it, which wasn't even, it wasn't changing. But I had this idea that if I had a mascot, we got to, I could get people to give me their information. So I bought this bear, this is probably where you're going. So I bought a bear mascot, California beer. So I went found some company online that so college mascot costumes, and I bought a grizzly bear, California grizzly bear costume. And, and the idea was that was going to walk around with somebody, but I realized, you know what, I'm gonna have to hire some young kid of Craigslist. And the beer, the bear costume was actually quite heavy. And so to see if it was a bad idea, I actually went out in the costume myself one day, to see if it was gonna kill somebody from heatstroke. And I thought it was you know, I had another kid working for me take a picture of me. And when I finished second in the primary that you know, that picture which I had on my website, wound up being in the paper right there, you know, the red orange county rescues that picture. And it somehow got sort of transformed this idea got sort of gained traction that I had walked around all primary in this beard. And you know, that, definitely the lore. Yeah, you know, yeah. So I've been up in Sacramento, where you know, there's at assembly this is at 40 senators. It's hard for political people to know who's here. And so that was the one thing that They knew about me, you know, based on the coverage after the primary as it was a surprise, obviously, that I had finished in the top two. And so, you know, that's still kind of follows me around when I made the mistake, I think after I got elected where Alexei Kosha, who was then writing I think, for the be interviewed me and at one point, you know, he's about the beer thing. And I said something to Federer, I'm not that kooky, right, you know, because, look at me, I'm, I'm actually kind of generic. And so that was the he used that as the headline, I'm not that kooky. Right, so. So it's not it's not all good, right. But I think it's probably also true that, you know, electric people shouldn't take themselves too seriously. And money shouldn't be the be all end all in politics. And so yes, I always am pretty proud that I use these kind of whimsical things in the service of what I still think is a very serious sort of Proposition, which I think people deserve to know who's running to and to be able to choose the best person to represent them, especially at the state level.

Kristina Hamilton  10:56

That's right. I think that's why we've always been friends, because we both have that kind of idealistic streak in us that we actually think government should work for the people. Yeah. And you know, just the unsexy work of making government better. And, you know, I mean, that's the point of the podcast, and all the content that I do is around people understanding what happens in Sacramento, how does this place work? And because it's not right, when you don't know that, you know, as a common citizen, or whatever,

Senator Josh Newman  11:28

right. And I always point out, you know, so if you see your elected legislator at your assembly member or your state senators, typically, you're most likely to run into them at a, you know, parade, right? Or, or dinner, you know, whether they're up on the stage, and they get acknowledged or they're down. Somebody says, Oh, we're so lucky to have Senator Newman here. And so people might think it's so glamorous, right to be, you know, an elected official. If you're doing the job. Well, to your point, it's pretty unglamorous, right. It's a, it's, it's, you know, you're on committees, your office, if you're doing the job, well, it's doing constituent work for people who, for instance, have trouble with their unemployment, you know, those kinds of things are their taxes, and then oversight, right, you're trying to make sure that everybody gets full value for their money. And just as importantly, and this is some things that, you know, I've worked on, that everybody is properly included, in, you know, the priorities that we make as a state. But you're right, not sexy. So

Kristina Hamilton  12:26

I feel like just from the gecko, your election in 2016, the fact that you made it into the top two is a lesson for advocates in and of itself, which is, you know, don't make assumptions. And people can Buck Buck the establishment and make it into office. I mean, it doesn't happen all the time. But it does happen. So just to kind of, I don't know, don't tarnish that veneer of, you know, you can't take on the mainstream, because you'll never make it or whatever. And listen nine times out of 10 That might be true, simply because of the financial factor, which you said money, right. Money is everything when you're running.

Senator Josh Newman  13:11

Money is online. I mean, I like to think it's not everything but money is yours. I mean, it's a lot, right. I mean, you know, there's an assembly districts, right, that's 500,000 People get retaken each right. So even if you just went to Kinkos and make copies, it's, you know, it's still expensive. Yes.

Kristina Hamilton  13:27

So moving into now your time in the building, you know, come in. So I've obviously never been elected, I have never even worked in the building. But I have, you know, had the experience of just being an advocate and someone on the outside, trying to break through the den of incessant crises and people and talking and words, right, and how do I make my words count in a way that somebody else's might not count? Right. And just your perspective, I think now having sat in that position of being someone who is listening to advocates and what, what you find to be effective versus, you know, totally, and in fact that

Senator Josh Newman  14:12

it's an interesting question, right. So it's sort of a given that in a state, this big, you know, with as many challenges and, you know, as many diverse kind of constituencies, whether that's people or industry groups or advocacy groups, you know, there's just a lot, right, there's just a lot. So, you know, we expect a lot. That's why again, I think it's really important that we as voters, you know, give as much thoughtful deliberation to the people we elect right because we're hiring them to do is so if you vote on popularity, if you vote only on party, right, you know, you might not be getting the most diligent or thoughtful representatives. But you know, what you have in California is you have a legislature that's actually proportionately really small, right, especially compared to other states. We are the largest in the country. And we have Alicia To the smaller than many smaller states, right? We have 40 members of the Senate, a member of the assembly. I once made the mistake of trying to tell him I've liked this, if there's 40 People in the Senate for a million people, that makes me wonder a million. And she is not dumb, she was like, you ran against three of them, you ran against two other people, you're, you're one in three. But we have, you know, people tend to assume  wow, if you got elected in California, you must somehow deserve it, or you've earned it. And, you know, that's not always true. Right? You know, you know, the people in politics are not the same as the people not in politics. Yeah, and every district is different, right? People come from different directions, the dynamics are different. So the challenge of advocates is, you know, you got to get the attention of 40 people over here, 80 people over here, that are really attention, you know, sort of, they have a huge attention deficit, there's not a lot of time in the day to, you know, to make. So, you know, what you're looking for your listeners, you want people who are, you know, sort of reasonably accomplished, and well versed, you know, lifelong learners, fast learners, and diligent students, if you will, because, you know, as an example, I think we, I think we introduced over 2000 bills last year, and voted on more than 1000. And they're all important to somebody, but it's not a given that every legislator is well versed in each of the votes they're making, even in committee, even frankly, they have their own bills, and we can get to why that is so. So for people trying to make an impact on the legislature either on behalf of an issue on behalf of a particular policy.You know, idea, or proposal. It's really about, you know, making sure that you get in front of the actual person, right, the actual legislator, and I think I differ from some other people that, you know, say oh, you know, go meet with staff, right, you know, somebody's chief of staff or policy after you can do that, but it's not super likely that that staffer is going to have the same amount of time then to, you know, to brief, the member if, if at best, it'll get distilled down into a paragraph. At worst, you know, it'll be a recommendation if and when this bill comes, you know, met with Christina's and her group, vote yes, vote, I vote no. And so it's really about getting in front of as many members as possible, and making an issue matter to them, which is to say, making clear why it matters to you and why it matters to the statewide should matter to them as a representative of the state. So

Kristina Hamilton  17:31

I'm going to interject because I love where you're going with this, because this is the immediate first question, and and first challenge most advocates face they can't get in front of the member. There's gatekeepers every which way you turn, you know, I mean, I've experienced the frustration of, you know, the members voting on this tomorrow, can we get five minutes of their time, and I get that you, you know, as a member, you're being called a million directions, you have leadership, you know, expectations, and then of course, your committee requirements, and all the things and like you said, there's only 24 hours in a day. But that's probably I would say, among the number one problems for these groups, specifically folks who don't live and breathe the capital. So they don't have name recognition. Right, you know, they may be a constituent of yours. So you may know them if they did a good job in the district, reaching out and making themselves known to you. But that isn't true for everybody else. And so how, how do we begin to get past that? There is no magic wand here.

Senator Josh Newman  18:40

Right? You know, there is no magic wand, I think you've touched on something important, the imperative is to get in front of that member as far in advance as possible. Right. And so it is probably true that if it's the day before the vote, and you know, let's say it's a committee vote, you know, there's probably 1011 things on that committee agenda, right. So, you know, at best, you're getting 10% of that members attention at best. But if it's, if it's an issue that's important to one of their constituents, it's, it shouldn't be that hard, you know, to get in front of them at some point, you know, in the district, right? Or in Sacramento, but you gotta give enough space that they won't have an excuse, hey, you know, swamped can't do it clock's ticking, you know, and then it's too late. Well, you know, once the boats they're gonna vote is typically, you know, it doesn't doesn't change much. But it's probably also true that if it's important to one set of constituents in my district, there's probably another set of constituents, but it's about average advocacy, right? Broadly, there's probably constituents in virtually every district or most for whom this is equally important. And so if you have a good kind of holistic strategy on this, right, not that you know, it is reasonable to try and get in front of that member. Every office is different. Every member sort of has a different sort of approach to service. I will always err on the side of product. Give me too much time, constituents bugs my staff. But I found that's the only way that I can really learn about issues. Yeah, but it provides the best insight into the impact of these issues as well.

Kristina Hamilton  20:12

Right? Well, you know, I just had a interview recently with Senator Gonzalez for the podcast. And, you know, she and you, I think, are cut from the same cloth in terms of erring on the side of giving too much time. Or, I should say, flowing with the opportunities to speak to constituents directly, even if it interferes with your other duties, because you want to get that in inside, you know, lived experience take on it. But I, you know, I'm sad to say, I don't think that's the norm. It just, yeah, bluntly, I don't think so.

Senator Josh Newman  20:49

Well, I don't I mean, I betcha you could ask most legislators, they would tell you the same thing, right. You know, it's sort of like, you know, that thing where a job interview question like, what's your biggest flaw? And people care too much about everything? Right? It's like, not everybody does. So. But it's, it's, it's also true that structurally, there are problems, right. And you and I've talked a little bit, there's, I mean, you know, it, we do too many builds, as we have, we have too many people on too many committees, which stretches people way too thin. And so, you know, I'm among a group of people that I think next coming year are going to advocate for reducing the, you know, the bill quota. And then I've been sort of a vocal advocate within my caucus to say, like, no, people don't need to be on five committees, right? Yes, there might be too much. And we don't need to have committees that have 17 people on them, because that creates a tremendous burden for advocates, right to get a majority of those people. But, you know, like you said, there's no, there's no magic wand. But there is value in diligence, right? There's value and tenacity. And there's especially value in I think, narratives, right, and so, you know, telling your story well, especially around kind of its impact, and its your constituents, to members so that when they vote, they have that as context.

Kristina Hamilton  22:10

What I also heard you say is the value of coalition building so that you're reaching other constituents in other districts and uniting around something that everyone is sharing in common? Where do you think folks in your caucus are with this concept of Bill? Introduction limits? I'm curious if that's upon

Senator Josh Newman  22:29

us, you know, it's one of these things where nobody will argue against it. But very few, very few people will step up to embrace it, right. And it reminds me that, you know, that saying, like, everybody complains about the weather, but nobody does anything about it. Right? So the same same principle kind of applies. And I think it's really a leadership imperative to say, hey, you know, we as a body, or each of the houses are going to sacrifice a little bit by way of latitude, right?

Kristina Hamilton  22:57

I'm on the bill limit campaign team, for sure. What

Senator Josh Newman  23:02

the weird thing is, everybody is right, you know, everybody is and yet, we never do anything about it. Right? So I think we'd all you know, and I guess the analogy that I've always thought makes sense is, you know, if you want to go out to dinner with a bunch of people, and every Sunday says, the beginning, like, Hey, everybody, we're all going to split the bill evenly, no matter what you get, right? You know, so nobody said, I just gotta sell it. So everybody's, I'll take the lobster, I'll take the steak, like, everybody's got to, you know, eat more. And that's kind of what we're doing now. With these Bill quotas being so high, if we, if we made them lower, I think everybody would benefit.

Kristina Hamilton  23:35

Right? And you'd be more discerning with what it is you're introducing. I totally agree. Right?

Senator Josh Newman  23:41

And just importantly, I would have more, you know, mind space, that's to talk about other people's bills, right? Because often, as an advocate, you come to me not because it's my bill, right? That would be easy for my bill, you know, I'm either for you or against you. But I'm on a committee with with 10 other people, there's 11 of us, and you're trying to get my attention for your bill that I'm just learning about maybe I don't know about. And so the fewer bills I have to learn about the more likely we're gonna have a good conversation. So

Kristina Hamilton  24:12

that's just the practical realities of when you don't have Bill introduction limits. You have legislators who are supposed to be vetting, you know, over 2000 bills, and in the grand scheme of human ability to comprehend, you know, there's just real problems there. Like, you can't get deep on all of that you don't have enough hours in the day, you don't have enough time, you know, bandwidth to

Senator Josh Newman  24:38

do that. And I think it's really important to note, you know, like, how the legislative process works, right? So it's, it's very, sort of end heavy. And by that, I mean, you know, we work over the course of a year, right, and it's prescribed differently. You know, it's different than their congressional, you know, Congress bills can kind of go in their own cycle, but in the legislature like, you know, February 5, Give or take as the submission deadline. And then there's a whole process, I mean, a series of gates, you know, policy gates appropriations for, but then everything sort of comes to the end of this cycle in September, the end of August 1 Half of September. And so we, as a legislature wind up voting on all of these bills as a huge pile. And so there are days where, you know, at the end of session, we're voting for 100 bills, right, and there is nobody smart enough to be fully prepared, except in the kind of the most basic kind of cliff note way, about, like all of the, you know, the different ramifications, you know, unintended side effects, the nuances of a bill, that's a big deal. And that's important, I think, for advocates to remember, right, unless you're really, really lucky, and it gets signed and move the gun really early, to be part of this massive kind of tidal wave of legislation that happens at the end of

Kristina Hamilton  25:53

the year. Yes, 100%. And I think it's just the reality of governing, right? Like, we have this kind of like, school kid notion, right? You know, all these things, these deliberative bodies, but then there's the practical reality of no human being can absorb 100 different complex issues and know them in and out.

Senator Josh Newman  26:12

I think that the conventional wisdom, like, you know, the rule of thumb is in psychology that each of us, on average, can hold like seven ideas in our head. Right? So it's not 100, right? It's not the truth. Like I can't even remember some days, my own bill numbers, every bill gets numbered. And somebody will say, you know, what, about 592? And I'll be like, Bill, you know, I don't know which

Kristina Hamilton  26:36

one, what does that do? Right? What it points to, going back to the advocate perspective, is you're marketing a product to a consumer. And when you take into account, all of these things that you're talking about, and that you've got the limited attention, you've got the too many bills, you've got the, you know, I'm reading the analysis, and I'm trying to digest but I can't, and all those things, right, the reality of it, it behooves the advocate, to speak therefore, in a certain way, right to be as concise as possible to get to the freaking point. If you have 15 minutes with a member, you shouldn't be spending 14 of them shooting the shit about, you know, the movie you saw last week, or getting deep into the statistics or this or that, in the sense that what is the most important thing that person needs to know in that short period of time? The concept of an elevator pitch is very real. And the concept of using marketing principles is, to me, very real, but as advocates, there's something almost ignoble, ignoble is how you say that word ennoble? No,

Senator Josh Newman  27:47

I don't know it. Nope. These words you always see written, nobody says. So I agree. I actually, Christina, you know, one of the bits of advice that I give to groups, you know, when they come on their lobbying day, right, they do their advocacy day, it is exactly that, like, get to the point. The reason for that is, I mean, if you ask the question, like, we got 120 legislators, they're all from different places, they all have one thing in common, and that is, they're probably really good at small talk. Right? And so what you see quite often is, let's say it comes in late, right? Because they're coming from somewhere, the last meeting where you came in late, because last minute to go. And then you do a bunch of small talk about where you're from, you know, so and so. High School. And next thing, you know, the schedule comes in, and like only five minutes left, right. And then the lesson, Archie, I'm sorry, we don't have more time. Exactly. And I'll say this, I don't think 15 minutes is sufficient to have a conversation about anything subsequently. Right. So I don't do 15 minute meetings, right. And if I'm advising people, I would say don't try not to accept 15 minute meetings. 30 minutes should be enough. If you get to the point to say, you know, hey, Mr. Senator, here's the problem. Here's our proposed solution. You here's what impacts? Here's some things to consider. Right? Here's the vote you're going to take. Yeah, right.

Kristina Hamilton  29:08

Right. Right. Here's your opposition, you know, so there's no surprises at the end of the day to write, right? This is what they're gonna say, This is why they're wrong, you know, when they come to you think about this element or whatever. Right. I guess it's the principle that, you know, a lot of advocates have that because an idea is a good one. It could be the most meaningful, data driven best practice, you know, every reason a war in the world, why it shouldn't be made into public policy, which I respect 100,000% Like, I'm not Pooh poohing any of that. But that isn't enough, because there's 100 other bills that have the same thing going on. And so how do you package what you're trying to do in a way that takes into account the reality of being a lawmaker? And that's not a No judgment. That's not, you know, a critique necessarily. It's just the reality that, you know, in a state as big as this with the legislature as small as this, you know, this is what you're dealing with, and how do you get around that? What is your messaging? What are your talking points, you know, what's your soundbite, like, good campaigns have sound bites, they just do. Right? What is one sentence that explains the essence of what this is about? And

Senator Josh Newman  30:24

again, you know, the way I think I've learned to do it is, you know, sort of problem solution, right? What's the problem that needs solving? And then what, what's our proposed solution? And if you really thought about it, you'll give yourself a little leeway for, you know, modification, right? Because the let's say, process is pretty merciless, you know, as far as how it changes in ideas, same as you know, no movie is the same as its original idea. After that process, let's say processes, something similar by the end, you know, it's going to probably change in some ways. But if you allow for that, I think you can kind of manage that process. Well.

Kristina Hamilton  31:01

Every year, you see bills get vetoed, at least in my experience, bills get vetoed with the simple explanation, that money wasn't allocated in the budget to pay for the bill. But you, every year see bills, going to the governor that don't have money in the budget, why do you think members don't seem to be pursuing the funding for their bills? Or not all of them do? At least I've sensed this almost trepidation or intimidation with the budget process? In general,

Senator Josh Newman  31:38

it's a good kind of action question. So you know, the budget process is one thing, you know, complicated, right down on one timeline, and then the legislative process is a very often a very different thing. But to the extent that the things we propose cost money, and that money comes from the budget, it's really important to align those two processes. And so I think what you do see is, you see, experienced legislators are sort of attentive to that and take that into account. But new legislators definitely think like, you know, it's kind of misguided. So if I can keep the conversation away from money, I'm more likely to get my bill through. But, right, but so, you know, there's a, there's sort of, there's a section of code 28.8, right. So, and we refer, which says that if something doesn't have fiscal impact, it doesn't have to go through the appropriations step. And so people are always hoping, like, you know, oh, this will get that we call it 2880. But it'll go straight through, you know, to the floor to the next house without having to go through that appropriations to happen for your listeners, you know, the appropriations process is kind of odd, you know, what it's supposed to be, I should say, it, it takes. Okay, there's another piece, but what it's supposed to be is it, you know, takes all the bills that have a fiscal impact, and it aggregates them together so that we as a legislature can then correlate the gross cost against our revenues against our fiscal capacity. And then within that prioritize, right, and so like, you know, so if the budget is x one year, you got to make sure you're not making commitments? Well, beyond that, simply because you think all this legislation is really supposed to work. There's a political dimension to the appropriations process that has nothing to do with that. It's probably the most vexing part of my job. You know, for certain, you know, for groups, we had a great bill that dies and appropriations, nobody has to tell you why. But that's part of it. But because, again, because those, you know, not aligned cycles. You know, we it's also about how, you know, it's a big state, right? So if you propose to do something that you want to do in all 58 counties, it's gonna cost millions of dollars, right, even if that's just staff time somewhere, and, you know, millions of dollars against billions isn't a lot, but if you multiply millions by 1000 bills, you get to big numbers. And so, you know, these are problems, you know, in the budget process itself is really opaque, right and kind of can't get in there. You know, in January of every year that Governor introduces a proposed budget, the legislature actually allocates funds, you know, so it's sort of a conversation negotiation between the governor and the legislature, but that goes through June. We don't pass bills until finally until September. Right. And so, you know, often during the listing process, Governor Staff Department fence will say, like, you know, this is a bad idea, because it will cost too much we can't do it. But, you know, half the time, it'll just keep moving. And then so, everybody will get all excited about solving a problem. And then at the end of the governor will veto it like this is, you know, a well intentioned effort for which there is not sufficient fish capacity or something of that effect.

Kristina Hamilton  35:01

This is such a valuable conversation because nobody talks about the intricacies of the budget timeline and the build timeline, the role that Appropriations is supposed to play versus the role that budget committee plays, and then how it actually works in real life. Going back to the new members in the budget process, I think what you said was really interesting, you know, there's a thought that if I just stay under this threshold, I'll escape suspense file, or if I just don't talk about the fiscal too much, then nobody will pay attention to it, even though the Department of Finance is literally analyzing the shit out of everything.

Senator Josh Newman  35:41

Right. But there's probably another piece to it, which is like, so if I'm a relatively new member, and, you know, I, you know, I support kind of your priorities, and we are, wherever you are, and you say, Hey, we've got to do something. So let's do it. I, you know, it's hard for me, absent, you know, the kind of Department of Finance inputI don't know how much that costs, right. And on some level, like I probably have an interest in not ask that question. Because, well, you know, what, if he did, he's like, hey, you know, Christine, I'm gonna take this bill, on behalf of your constituents, or a group that you support. And let's do it right. And then if I came back and say, Hey, by the way, they will research and it's going to cost $80 million. I'm not doing it. Right. And you would say, I think reasonably so what it's really important. Yeah. And I, you know, it probably isn't, and again, in a state where our, you know, sort of general fund obligations like $300 billion. I mean, this really is the question, which is, how do we prioritize? You know, when it comes to bills, if something's important enough to pass, right, it shouldn't be important enough to fund? Well,

Kristina Hamilton  36:45

I think it goes back to that's why you have to ask for an appropriation in the budget process. This is what makes it confusing. Every year, the governor does sign bills, that costs money. And they find the money,

Senator Josh Newman  36:58

they find the money, right? They absolutely, they

Kristina Hamilton  37:00

find it's either absorbed internally or who knows. Or it's a bill that says upon appropriation so that the bill actually is signed, but until you go next year to the budget and get money, it's not being implemented.

Senator Josh Newman  37:13

Right. And that could go one of two ways, you know, that can come with a fairly general commitment, or expectation that the money will be found in the next budget year, or the onus is on you right to go. Yeah.

Kristina Hamilton  37:21

Well, that's how I would understand it. Right? Yeah. So it goes back to this reality of advocates need to know, and members should know that a billion dollars is never going to go unnoticed. Even a million dollars won't go unnoticed in my experience. And all that happens is a terrible veto message. And then you're disappointed and you've worked so damn hard, and all of the things are all the things right. But it's not as certain. Again, there are times where, you know, the governor has signed big bills. But that's an outlier.

Senator Josh Newman  37:58

So part of the advocacy lesson here is, to the extent possible if you can have the support of members, not just of the legislative branch, me as the author or whoever. But some level of mindshare and support in the executive branch, you know, you're that much more likely to have the right outcome. And we often we work on a building lobby a bill, it's, it's completely focused on the legislative component. And that that often gets you to where, you know, we've got that worst case scenario where the government, and I can't do this, but the other thing to learn is it's not easy, but it's actually quite possible to find the right people within the administration, who have oversight, or an interest in a particular issue. And so if we can bring them to it earlier, it makes it feel you know, that much more likely that you money won't be the excuse for not, right.

Kristina Hamilton  38:50

If you think about it, you need a champion in the administration, you need a champion in the Senate in the assembly. And this all has to align right. It's a pretty Herculean process. Oh,

Senator Josh Newman  39:02

totally. And a lot sometimes. What, and often it has nothing to do with money, per se, it has to do with who gets credit for the idea. Right. And so, you know, there is that in the budget, the budget proposal was it's a bunch of proposals from one side of the house, and then we come back with ours, and you know, nobody looks the same. It's somebody else's ideas that your own, my ideas are awesome. You know, somebody else's idea. You know, I'm not I can figure out reasons why I wouldn't want to do that. So, you know, it's really about to your point about narrative marketing. It's about getting people to buy in, right. And ownership in a particular proposal. Well,

Kristina Hamilton  39:41

I've done episodes that are just on the budget process and my favorite. Well, I have several favorites. Actually. I did one with former senator come Lager. Now Congress member when she was sub three chair in the Senate. We came up with this metaphor. It's no ensemble, right? It's putting on a show. There's a whole bunch of people who do a whole bunch of different things. And you really need to talk to all of them. Because at the end of the day, it's everyone's checking are you good? Does this work for you? And that process is exhausting. Budget advocacy is very hard and very tiring.

Senator Josh Newman  40:17

Exhausting. Exhausting. Yeah.

Kristina Hamilton  40:20

Yeah, people assume that everybody knows how the budget process works is just not true. You know, definitely on the staff level, definitely on the member level, if you're looking for money, find someone who knows how to do this stuff. Right? Because it's just not the same.

Senator Josh Newman  40:35

It's, you know, on some level, like, that's what it's really about. Right? And that's, you know, state this big. You want to make a difference and a particular problem, it's gonna cost money. It's real money, and it's and it's got to come from somewhere. I

Kristina Hamilton  40:49

want to be respectful of your time. This has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and your insights very valuable.

Senator Josh Newman  40:58

Like I said, insights, maybe not expertise. But you you're

Kristina Hamilton  41:02

an expert in being a state senator.

Senator Josh Newman  41:05

Maybe so I've really enjoyed it and I always enjoy working with you, Christine.